INTERVIEW WITH GARNET HARROLD

Date of Interview: June 27, 2004 in Fort Nelson, British Columbia

Interviewer Hank Bridgeman
Transcriber: Case Mond

Hank Bridgeman:
Just tell me your name, spell it for me if you can.

Garnet Harrold:
And then I’ll start off telling you when I left the Old Fort, and got started...

Hank Bridgeman:
I start by asking your name so we get it on camera, and you spelling it for me.

Garnet Harrold:
My name is Garnet Harrold. I was born in 19...

Hank Bridgeman:
How do you spell your last name?

Garnet Harrold:
H.A. Double R. O.L.D. Garnet has only one T. My birthday is... I was born in 1922.

Hank Bridgeman:
1922. So how old were you when the Alaska Highway was...

Garnet Harrold:
I was 19 when I worked on the highway.

Hank Bridgeman:
So what was it like when all these guys suddenly showed up?

Garnet Harrold:
Oh... Most of the Native people, they didn’t really... you know... I don’t know whether they was just afraid or what, but I mean, lot of them were so happy to see them, you know. Like, we were too. We met so many of them and they were so nice to us. We really enjoyed it. I know, I had a lot of fun with them on the highway when we were working with them. We used to sit down by the campfire at night and then we tell jokes and stuff and they tell us jokes, and, you know we’d have a great time. I enjoyed all the time I was with them. I really liked it. They were a bunch of nice boys. Most of them I know were really nice boys, very nice.

Hank Bridgeman:
So what was it... you were a guide?

Garnet Harrold:
Yeah. You see, I was packing the horses (coughs). There’s a pack string that came in from Fort St. John, was three packers, three guys. And then when they got here, they picks up the other horses down from the Old Fort River, that belonged to, some of them belonged to Archie [Gardener]. So, they got them horses too. I think it was, I believe it was around 10 head of horses that they got from the Old Fort. And then when Archie came home... The camp was up at the bottom of Steamboat on this side. Then Archie had to come home -- his wife or something was having a baby or something. And they must have asked him who they could get in the Old Fort. I knew Archie pretty good, because him and I, like, we used to party on our same day birthday. We used to have quite a time. So they brought Archie home... they brought him... they were coming down on the Jeep from Steamboat. And then they came over and they saw me as Archie told them. And they asked me if I would go. I said “well, I’m not doing nothing.” I said “sure, I’ll go with you.” So I got ready and they took me up to Steamboat Mountain, where the camp was. But the rest, all the rest of the boys and the horse packers, they had already left that morning. They were going further up the road following the pack trail. So they left me one saddle horse there. And when I got there, the boys, they made me a lunch and they said “they left one horse for you so you can ride and you can catch up to them tonight.” I knew the guy that owned the horses. So I saddled him up and everything and I took off. They weren’t too far ahead of me. They could only move so far every day, so I caught up some... early. And from then on... Well, I didn’t see the cat train, because, right now, where that store is at Steamboat, just above that, they went down below on a hill. They were working down there when we went by. So I never got to...

Garnet Harrold:
I never got to see the cat train... Well, actually, I did never see them until we were further up the highway, but... We were traveling and... I was gonna say that the cat train had a, had a pretty good going from after they left Steamboat because there wasn’t much brush to cut. It’s all open, eh. Just to build a trail, eh. So, I mean, they made good time. because we got... (Coughs) We were eh... We were camped up along the Toad River there, later on. And eh, one of the officers came up to our camp and he says, he said “You boys had better be out of here in the morning early, because” he says “the cats are gonna be right on your tail.” He says “they’re right back here. They’re not very far.” We were out... We got up at four o’clock in the morning and started wrangling horses. We had them, we got them all packed and everything. We got them all tight off on a tree, and the cats were pushing dirt right there on the side hill. We had to get out of there because the horses were starting to get scared, eh. So we started to untie them as fast as we could and we got them out of there.

Hank Bridgeman:
What time of year was that?

Garnet Harrold:
That was in July.

Hank Bridgeman:
July. What was it like during the winter?

Garnet Harrold:
eh?

Hank Bridgeman:
What was it like blazing train during the winter?

Garnet Harrold:
Oh, it wasn’t too bad.

Hank Bridgeman:
No?

Garnet Harrold:
No. And, eh... They caught up to us there. We got away from them, from the cats there. And then we moved on every day. We got up to eh... Yeah, we got to Muncho Lake. And then the cats came right behind us, not too far. They were right... Because it’s all just clear sailing you know, down the Toad River there, there’s no bush hardly at all, so they went right through to Muncho Lake. They caught up to us there. And we had to go over the mountain, with horses over the pack trail. And there’s three, three hills in there that we had to go over. So we took the trail and started out to get away from the cats. But they were there for quite a little while, because they had that straight rock that came right out to the water and they had to do all that blasting eh, to get a road in there... through there, eh. That took a little... quite a while.

Hank Bridgeman:
So what was that like for you? Cause you had probably never seen these machines and blasting and any of that kind of stuff. That would have been all new for you. What was that like?

Garnet Harrold:
I’ve seen... The only thing that I can say... I’ve seen the cats before, eh, at other times, in Alberta or somewhere, you know, but. Actually, I’ve seen no blasting or anything like that, eh. So we started over the mountain with the horses and we just got going down, starting down the second hill on the mountain, the other way, when smoke came up over the hill. A fire started at the cats, where the cats were working. A fire started -- I don’t know how it started -- but it started across the mountain. And we got down and... the horses could smell it right away, and also... and I told them, “we better get some going” I said. “we got to get out of here. That fire’s coming our way.” So we got down the third hill and then, along the sandbar. We pushed them pretty hard through there just to get away from the smoke. So, when got down to the other end of the lake and then we stayed... we camped there with the horses. And some of the boys were down there, coming to talk to us and that. And from then, I didn’t... I never got to... We never got to see the cats anymore, because we left them there when they had to do all that blasting so they were... We were gone. But every day that we moved... We’d always root along in the bush... We always blazed a tree every so often and we marked the R’s on there for... that they knew it was ours, eh. And it was good traveling like that. So I never did see the cats again until... Well... Actually, I don’t think I’d seen the cat train again all the rest of that summer cause once they had... after we had left the Liard River,

Garnet Harrold:
and they got there and they crossed, they were up mostly... largely upon the side hill cutting trail, so we never got to see them. And on the way back again I never saw them because they were working along the hill, so...

Hank Bridgeman:
So what you would do is, you’d go ahead and then you’d just mark trees and so the cats would follow that trail...

Garnet Harrold:
Yeah, they could follow us. Yeah. And there’s places... And we had... we had two parties survey crew with us. And whenever we got to, like, cross the Liard... Down the Trout River it was just... it’s all right along the river all the way down right to the Liard, pack trail. Once we crossed the Liard they got back up off the river bank and they had to start cutting the lines, the survey lines, eh, for the cats, eh. But we didn’t move very far. We could... A lot of days, maybe we only moved about two miles and then we’d have to make sure, because... The officer says “don’t go... don’t go too far, because” he says “we can’t leave the boys cutting the trail, eh...” He says “we have to keep... letting them keep up to us very close. So we wouldn’t move very far in a day. A lot of times, in the evening, we could hear them working up... cutting the trail up on the hill, you know. Like I was saying, eh, I didn’t... I never heard... I never did hear anything about aerial photographs them days. You know, I never did see any aerial photographs, nothing like that. And when we were across the Liard, the other side of the hot springs...

(interruption, fixing the microphone)

Hank Bridgeman:
A lot of the guys I talked to said there wasn’t a whole heck of a lot of food. What was that like for you? Did you guys hunt or anything while you were on the trail? Was there any game?

Garnet Harrold:
No. No. I’ll tell you that in a few minutes. No, we never done any hunting I saw, not the packers. I don’t think, actually, we were allowed to do that anyway, I don’t think. In fact, I don’t think, none of us had a rifle. I know the guy that was working with me, I know he didn’t have one. I don’t know about the boys that was with us from Fort St. John, but I don’t think... I’ve never seen them pack a rifle or anything. But... I was telling you, after we got across the Liard, the other side of the hot springs, and we were camped along the banks of the Liard there. And, an officer... we had the camp all set up at night and everything, and an officer was sitting there on one of the banks out on the river there and he was looking at a photograph, an aerial photograph. And he had told me, he says “Garnet” he says, “when you move,” he says “when you move from there, when you move ahead about two miles or three, not very far, but” he says “there’s an island up there” and he said “where you see that island, that’s where you will stop on the river.” And he said “we’ll wait there for the boys.” And he said “where you see that island,” he said “when you stop and make camp,” he said “you’ll turn the horses out to feed.” And there wasn’t too much feed for horses neither, in those days. It was really... But he says “If you take them back in the point, at the bottom of the hill,” he said “there’s a long slough in there -- grass.” And he said “if you take them back in there, they’ll have a good feed back there.” So we did that and then... and then when... I was curious, because I said, now how did he know about a slough back there? I didn’t know, eh. So he was working and I was just sitting a ways from him, watching him. And he said “did you ever look in the aerial photographs, man?” “No” I said “I’ve never even heard of them.” I said “I’ve been curious about... you tell me how you knew what was ahead of us.” He said “you want to see them?” and I said “sure, I’d like to.” So he said “come here,” he says, “I’ll show you.” So he showed me the aerial photographs and I looked at it. You could see it so plain.

Garnet Harrold:
Even on the banks of the Liard River and the other side, you could even see the spruce trees, you know. And he says “that’s how we know.” And I was surprised. I had never known this was like that. I was wondering how they knew what was ahead of us. So I was pretty happy about that. We kept it going anyway. It was pretty good sailing... Like for us, all the time, right up to the... Well we moved every day... Well, not that far, but...

Hank Bridgeman:
How much... How far did you go every day?

Garnet Harrold:
How far?

Hank Bridgeman:
Roughly...

Garnet Harrold:
You mean?

Hank Bridgeman:
How much distance did you make average every day?

Garnet Harrold:
Oh, it would be... I’d say maybe... Once, once we got... Well I guess... Yeah, once we got across the Liard... Because the cats had caught up to us once along the Toad River, eh. That’s the first time that they caught up with us, because there was not much bush to do and they were really pushing ‘em. And once we got across the Liard, then we couldn’t go too far. That’s why I said, we couldn’t leave them because the crew that we had... We had two crews surveying -- army boys -- and we had to wait for them because they couldn’t... You can’t go too far in one day, you know. They had to cut the line and mark and everything. I don’t think we ever... I don’t think we ever moved more than maybe two miles, at the most. Only that one time that we... I don’t know what really happened there, but... An officer asked me, he said... he says “Garnet, would you... do you mind,” he says, “would you go back down along the river and when you hear the boys working up on the hill,” he said “would you go up there,” he says “and tell them that... tell them that I sent you up there to bring them back to camp.” And I said “sure, I don’t care... I don’t mind, I’ll do it.” So I went up there and I told them and in a way they didn’t... didn’t try to believe me, I don’t know why. It didn’t bother me anyway, but... I went there and I told them, I said... I think it was Lieutenant Stewart, I think, that was with us that time, who showed me... I told them “He sent me up here,” I said “to get you boys... I have to take you back to the camp. I said he told me “make sure they don’t get away from you,” he says. So I brought them down to the river bank and... they can’t miss the trail because there’s a pack train there and then there’s... altogether we had a 50 head of horses there, cause we had two survey crews and they had quite a bit of stuff to pack and I had a few saddle horses that we had some boys change off a ride once in a while. So I brought them down to the river bank, to the trail there and I started up the river towards our camp and most of them followed me. And then one of the boys behind me hollered, he says “Garnet” he says, “Excuse me, some guys are going the other way.” I said “no, they can’t go that way, that’s where we come from,” I said. “I think you better see and yell at them.” So I went back and told them “you boys can’t go that way that’s... we got to go up river here,” I said. “It’s not too far,” I said. “If you go downstream,” I said “you’re just gonna go back where we come from.” I said “you better follow me or else you might get yourself into a pile of trouble, because he told me not to let you guys get away from me.” They followed me then. We got to camp. I didn’t... I didn’t say nothing because there was no problem anyway, but... Because I didn’t want those boys to get into trouble just over that. I think that was... We never had no problem with them at all, you know. If the officers told us that this was what we’re supposed to tell them, they’re supposed to do it, eh. That’s... And then we... When we got to the Liard, when we left Muncho Lake, and we kept going with the horses and we got to the Liard

Garnet Harrold:
and we had to make two rafts there because we had to raft all that stuff across the Liard, eh... no boats or nothing there. So before... before we got... before we moved all that stuff across and the horses, the officer said “maybe,” he says “a couple of you should take some pack horses and saddle horses and go back to Muncho where the cats are,” he says “and get some grub before we cross the Liard, because,” he says “once we cross the Liard we won’t see them for quite awhile.” So I went back and I think it was, if I’m not mistaken, one of the other boys, John came with me too and we went back and we picked up some grub from the cat train and we brought it back to the Liard and then we had to start getting ready to build these rafts so we could get all that stuff across. But, you know, it was a good... it was a good summer, because I never... I don’t know that as long as I’ve ever known the Liard River -- that part -- I’ve never seen the water was that low. Have you ever been up to the Liard?

Hank Bridgeman:
Yeah.

Garnet Harrold:
Yeah. You know, before they changed this highway, not long ago, but the old road. You remember when you first... when you’re going down you can see the Trout River going into the Liard, and you’re on the highway... And when you go down a long hill like that (points left) and then you go that way (points right) and this when you turn (points left) you’re right into the Liard River.

Hank Bridgeman:
Yeah, right.

Garnet Harrold:
Right there is where we crossed the horses.

Hank Bridgeman:
Okay.

Garnet Harrold:
Yeah. Right there, there’s a narrow place there. There’s a sand bar on the other side, quite a long sand bar on the other side. So, I figured that’s where the horses will come out and we’d be good there on the sand bar. So we rafted all that stuff across. Took us all day. We started about seven in the morning. Two rafts, and boy, we had to... we could make it across there and then we’d have to pull the raft up the other side, far enough that we could make it back to this side to where the sand bar is, eh, because, you know, with a raft you gotta make quite a distance because it is floating away, eh. So we done all right there. We didn’t have no problem. The American boys, they had one raft and they watched... They showed us... We made one for them. We showed them how to do it and everything. They done pretty good. And the packers had the other raft, five of us. So we got all that stuff across, then we’d have to swim the horses. We had to put the horses in there. Oh, they would get all excited, you know, they were standing there. And Archie Gardener’s buckskinner had a colt on the road. It wasn’t a very big... it wasn’t too big when we got to the Liard. But he could swim, though.

Hank Bridgeman:
So how many horses did you have to cross again?

Garnet Harrold:
What did we had?

Hank Bridgeman:
Yeah

Garnet Harrold:
I think about... If I’m not mistaken, I think we had around 50 or 51 head of horses -- and one mule. The boys had brought that mule from Fort St. John. They had lost it here. They said when they got to Fort Nelson, that one mule got away from the other one somewhere. They never did find it. They just left it like that here and we took the other one... they took the other one with them. And we were gonna push the horses in the water and I told them, I says, “well” I said “what we’re gonna do,” I says “I’m gonna put Archie Gardener’s horses from the Old Fort,” I says “up in the front. (Coughs) I says “I know that they’ll take to water good, and when they do the other ones will probably follow.” And so we did it. And they said “you’re gonna let that little colt swim?” I said “Yeah, he’s gotta swim. He’ll like it.” They wanted to put him on the raft, eh. I said “no, we don’t put him...” So we pushed them, and they all took to the water pretty good once the others started. The little colt was... as soon as his mother got in, he went right in with them. Smart. Stayed on the lower side of his mother, eh, away from the current. And... They got a little over... oh, about halfway across... it wasn’t really that wide there... about half way in the middle. I said “you watch now,” I said “that colt is right beside his mother.’

Garnet Harrold:
The colt just went up like this and he threw up his arm over his mother’s back and he rode her.

Hank Bridgeman:
Really?

Garnet Harrold:
Yeah, they couldn’t believe that. They said “How would a horse now to do that?” I said “Well, you know, that’s their ways. I guess they know.” He even just hung onto his mother until he hit bottom and he got out and he walked out. They couldn’t believe that. I never thought a horse, a colt would know that much. So we got... (Coughs) Excuse me, my throat is really bad. So we got across. We camped there on the other side, because we were working all day and we were tired too. We just let the horses go up on the hill and feed around. We made a camp there right on top of the bank. And the next morning we brought the horses in and we were gonna get ready to go again. And we had everything... we had most of them... well, we had everybody’s stuff packed, except for one guy, and I don’t know who it was. It was one American boy anyway. He was sleeping up on the bank. We had called him, you know, at least two or three times. “You’d better get your stuff rolled up because we’re gonna be packing here,” I says, “we’ll be needing your pack for either packing outfit gotta have the same amount all the time.” And he disobeyed us. He wouldn’t do it, you know. We were just about finished and we were going and I told him... I told one of the boys, a sergeant or whoever it was, I told him, I says “that guy there won’t move,” I says “and we told him to get his stuff ready.” And he says “Just a minute,” he says “I’ll fix him.” So he went and told the officer, he says, whoever it was, he says, “that boy is still in bed,” he says “he won’t move and the packers are ready to go.” So he went up there and he told him to get the hell out of there right now, because, he says “you’re gonna be in trouble, because,” he says, “I’m gonna report you.” When we meet the other cats... eh, horses coming from Watson Lake, he says, Captain... I might have the wrong name, now, because when I talked to Earl, I told him the officer that was in charge of that was Captain Ashwall, and he said it’s Ashbacher. I don’t know, but... But we only new it Ashwall, you know. He says “I’ll report you, to the captain,” he says “and you’ll be in trouble because he said he’s in charge of all this things going here. So I guess he did, you know. So when we met the other horses coming from Watson Lake, we were... we met them between someplace this side of Fireside... Somewhere between Fireside and Coal River... That’s where we met the other horses coming from Watson. So we all camped there together, and the next morning, the next morning, the officer, well he told him “boys,” he said “you roll up your bed rolls now,” and he says. “I want you to line them up down there,” he says “on the sand bar.” And he says “Every one of you stand behind your bed roll.” And he says “when these packers pick them bed rolls up,” he says “I want you to understand that...” He says “you know these packers by now, they’ve been with us long enough.” So he says “you watch what packer takes your stuff and where they put them.” He says “If this happens again that [nothing... one didn’t put his bed right],” he says, “You will pack it the next day, all day,” he says. That’s true, and he had them too. And he says “Not only that,” but he says, “You will put up four pup tents on your own every night for the officers, eh.” He says “that’s your job until we get back to [?] and base camp. He says “that’s because you wouldn’t obey orders from...” And they made them do it too, you know.

Hank Bridgeman:
Garnet, I’m gonna have to... Because we’re running out of time... I’m gonna have to ask you a few little questions, okay?

Garnet Harrold:
Yeah.

Hank Bridgeman:
Just eh... How much did they pay you for this work?

Garnet Harrold:
Well, you see, that’s where I got beat anyway, I know, but. I was, you know, I didn’t have...

Garnet Harrold:
I was just by myself... so I didn’t have... I stayed with my uncle in the Old Fort, but... They paid us five dollars a day. But not the American Army. You see. There was a Canadian guy by the name of, eh... I think his name was Kelly Sheffield, I don’t know. He had the contract for these horses and the man that’s working. And the men would pay him and he’d pay us, eh. So that’s the way it worked. So, when the job ended and we come back. I got back to the Old Fort on October 30th, I think, and... with Archie's horses, and the other boys, eh. I don’t know if they trucked the horses from here [to ?] or they walked them. I couldn’t say for sure, but... We had to go to Fort St. John to get our money. They said “you’ll go there and you’ll get paid there.” So, we flew down to Fort St. John. It wasn’t right away, it was a few days later, I guess, when we went down there. And the guy that was supposed to pay us, he was there all right, but the officers and staff that I was looking for, had already went back to the States. So when I found out that we weren’t... that we didn’t get paid our full amount of pay, I told them, I says “How come,” I said” we got more money than this coming.” I said “I’ve been working three months for this outfit.” And I said “I didn’t...” I said “It seems like I only got maybe half my pay or a little better.” and I said “that’s all.” And we couldn’t do anything because there was nobody there now to back us up, eh. They already had... They had already had left, eh. So that kind of hurt us in a while, but I just kinda... Eventually, I just... Oh the heck with it, I can’t do nothing because, you know, they had already gone back. He got paid, but, you know, he was just, you know, too crooked. And I often wondered... I never found out for sure because... I meant to ask Archie if he had got paid for his horses because his horses was supposed to get... be getting two dollars a day for each horse. But I never did ask him so I don’t know if he beat everybody. I know that I never got my money.

Hank Bridgeman:
Gee, that must have been... Yeah, that’d be a bit upsetting.

Garnet Harrold:
Oh, yeah that was... Once I found out who had that job, I figured right away something was gonna be wrong because I knew them boys from before, so I knew something was gonna happen. I just took what they give me and I didn’t bother with the rest.

Hank Bridgeman:
What was the funniest thing that happened when you were up on the trail? There must have been... There must have been a few funny situations. Do you remember anything that was really comical?

Garnet Harrold:
Well, one thing is... Like the guys... the boys had the kitchen crew. They done all the kitchen work. They were a pretty good bunch of boys, and eh... The first time... We were camped once along the Toad River and after we had everything settled down and we had supper and... “We’re gonna put on a little show for you boys,” they said. Okay, right. Sure, that’s good. Nothing to do. They were gonna play cowboys and indians (laughs). They started putting on this show. And this one guy, I didn’t realize, he had a knife on the side of his [sca? ]. And they started wrestling, you know, like the movies, you know, fighting and wrestling. And they had this guy down and he pulled that knife and he... just missed that guy, right beside him, eh. Officer jumped up. He thought he got him, you know. “No more of this,” he says. “That was too close,” he says. “You should never... you should never have knife like you had the one you carry” He says “If you wanna play later, you can put on a show or what you wanna do, but” he says “no knives or nothing.”

Garnet Harrold:
So it was better after that, but I don’t think he, you know, really meant anything, he just trying to play... show...

Hank Bridgeman:
During the winter... You’re acclimatized to this area, but a lot of the guys, a lot of the soldiers had never been in those kind of temperatures, right?

Garnet Harrold:
Yeah, well, you know... I didn’t see... I wouldn’t see too much of that because... Like, when I got home, you see, they were still going with cats yet, right, I mean, when winter come, I never seen them at all, eh. I never went back up after I got home. So I didn’t see... But we heard so many stories about the boys being so cold and they weren’t used to it and all that, you know. Oh yeah, there was lots said about that. They didn’t know... They didn’t know how to put up with the weather and everything. It was rough. It was pretty rough. I guess they made it... No, actually I enjoyed the work, cause, you know, I’ve done a little bit before and... I enjoyed being with them. They were all pretty nice boys. It was the only sad thing is, you know, they didn’t pay us for half. And I couldn’t do nothing, because... I inquired around Fort St. John. They said they had all already had all left to go back. He got the money. He did whatever he wanted to do, I guess.

Hank Bridgeman:
Just a closing comment... It must have been fun for a young guy, eh.

Garnet Harrold:
Oh yeah. I liked it. Well all the boys... There was another packer from the Old Fort and there was me when we started. The other three from Fort St. John, I knew them all. We got along really good, you know. The packers got along good and we got along good with the boys and everything. They’d tell us jokes. I enjoyed all the time I was with them.

Hank Bridgeman:
Good... Okay. We’re out of time.

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